Dr.Pillay's new message (27th feb) on this issue.....Dr.SC Mestri, Dr.D.B.Dayal and Dr.S.K.Roy Chaudhary's comments are also added.....Dr.P.Sivasankara Pillai's comments are added to ----Prof Dr.Devadass PK, Prof Dr.SC Mestri, Prof Dr.V.V.Pillay, Prof Dr.O.P.Murty and Several other FM experts: BE AWARE....!!! THERE IS A VERY SERIOUS THREAT TO THE SUBJECT OF FORENSIC MEDICINE...!!!

Dear friends n colleagues,
Prof Dr.Devadass PK here..........,
BE AWARE....!!! THERE IS A VERY SERIOUS THREAT TO THE SUBJECT OF FORENSIC MEDICINE...!!!
I, Dr.Devadass PK, workin as Prof. and HOD of FM, Bangalore medical college and research institute, Bengaluru. For d past 28yrs, that i have been in the subject of forensic medicine have done a lot of upliftment for the subject at various levels and at various forums. I have tried to bring the subject to the lime light, be it human rights education, multi organ donations, revision of curriculum etc.,
you must be aware of the draft curriculum, FM 2007. brought out by swami vivekananda youth movement, Mysore. my department in BMCRI was the back bone and i in particular. for more than 2yrs i collaborated with swami vivekananda youth movement to bring out the draft curriculum 2007. for this many eminent people from all over the country have contributed. i will be failing if i do not mention my post graduate students who went to 6 districts that too in the peak of summer to gather information which is a very hard task. all these things were done way back in 06-07, without expecting any rewards or appreciation.
this is one example which reflects how like minded people were struggling to bring back the glory of the subject silently.
but i am sorry to say, that there are some so called forensic experts and forensic teachers who have been been actively harming our subject and now constitute the threat that we are facing today.
WHO ARE THESE PEOPLE...???????
These are the people who hop from one college to another for their own comforts and luxurious living. these are the people who are directly responsible for the reduction in the number of faculty and increasing the upper age limit from 65yrs to 70yrs.
some of the managements of the private medical colleges have personally told me that it is hard to get forensic teachers in a straight forward manner. even if they get the teacher, they have to pay a very high price and the demands grow day by day. some of them have been literally blackmailed at the time of inspection by these teachers in order to get a big bite of the prize.
since i have visited many medical colleges as inspector as well as assessor, some of us inspectors have categorized the forensic teachers into the following categories........,
CATEGORY 1: teachers will work from 1st to 31st of month and draw the salary at the end. most/all government medical colleges fall into this category along with some reputed private medical colleges.
CATEGORY 2: They attend college weekly once or twice and get full attendance and full salary.
CATEGORY 3: they report to the college on 31st , draw salary on 1st and seen in the college again on 31st..!!!(attend the college once in a month)
CATEGORY 4: They will report to he college during MCI inspection and get full salary and all other comforts.
CATEGORY 5: There is one more category......., working full time abroad, fly to India when ever there is an MCI inspection. this category of people join a college here, go abroad......!!! at the end of 5yrs they are also promoted to associate professor.

Example 1: a forensic teacher reported here in India, worked in UK for 4yrs.....!!! came back here, was promoted to associate professor and has gone back to UK and when he comes back he will be promptly promoted as professor and his head has been counted by MCI.
Example 2: there is an another bright forensic man working in malaysia in a software company, flies to India whenever there is inspection in a college in Bengaluru.
" THEY DONT TEACH..............!!!!!! "
Another irony is that some of the forensic experts go to the neighboring states to get their salary but are very much in Bengaluru and are appointed as external examiners to our university.
All these categories except the first are depriving the young forensic doctors from getting a job and becoming examiners. it is a great tragedy that these people do not teach.
how can you expect a student to learn a subject when the teachers are not available to teach but are available only in the payment register. to top it all, one qualified MD forensic doctor is working as a CMO in Bengaluru in a private hospital and is a teacher in kerala and gets his salary in lumpsum for three years in advance.
these are the people i feel are a real threat to the subject because the management has come to know that without teaching forensic medicine, the medical students can get through their subject and are not bothered about the quality of teaching, as long as they have some names in the teaching roster to satisfy the MCI requirement. this problem is more in my state of karnataka.i am not awre of the position in the other states. if it is so, then it is time that young forensic graduates should fight against this practice. this will strengthen the subject and if the teachers are made to work on all days by the management, the quality of teaching of forensic medicine will definitely improve.
if the teachers do not agree to the management proposal, the MCI can ask the private managements to throw these pseudo teachers out, so that able youngsters will get more job opportunities. the MCI is not a threat to the subject..., in fact they want to bring out quality education for both UG and PG. The BOG are highly educated , knowledgeable and experienced. i am sure and i believe they are not a threat to us.
i am happy that i was chosen as one of the members to guide the MCI to make a better curriculum for UG and i have first hand knowledge of the architect of VISION2015. i also met and spoke with some of the other members of the BOG.
their interest is not to harm the subject but in fact to strengthen it.
once again i wish to tell all like minded people that there is no threat from MCI but there is a real threat from the pseudo teachers.
IF YOU AGREE WITH MY POINT JOIN ME TO ROOT OUT THIS MENACE FROM OUR FRATERNITY.........., IF YOU DONT AGREE WITH ME, YOUR COMMENTS AND SUGGESTIONS ARE MOST WELCOME...........,

Prof Dr.Devadass PK
Head of the Department
Department of Forensic medicine
BMCRI, Bengaluru
Karnataka


drdevadasspk@hotmail.com
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The above post is from the 'forensic' group of facebook


Reactions/comments in the facebook
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Koodly Yoganarasimha 

We all knew what Dr. Devdas has put in writing. His classification of such people in to 5 different category is excellent. Do not recommend them for examinership in your university as some of the Deemed University are doing (for example BLDE University). When you go to such colleges as examiner, be strict in your assessment and fail the candidates if they are not up to the minimum acceptable standard. But do we do this? The answer is 'NO', because we want to be called again as examiners to such centers, as the local hospitality is overwhelming and the remuneration good. Who are we to blame? OURSELVES. It is a VICIOUS CIRCLE and you are a part of it.

Ramesh K Sharma 

Dear Professor Devadass
i fully share your concern but this is not happening in our specialty only but in most of clinical subjects too, please don not blame only Forensic Medicine. Let us do whatever we can to save our specialty rather than blaming it. i really appreciate your efforts and i am with you in whatsoever way you require
with warm regards
yours sincerely
Prof (Dr) R K Sharma
President, Indian Association of Medico-Legal Experts ( Regd), New Delhi
Dean R & D, Saraswathi Institute of Medical Sciences, Hapur
Principal, Saraswathi Instiutte of Paramedical Sciences, Hapur
Former Head
Department of Forensic Medicine and Toxicology
All-India Institute of Medical Sciences
Ansari Nagar New Delhi-110029

Drjashwant Darji You are very right sir. We have to do something very fast in this matter to save our subject.

Pramendra Thakur dear prof. dr devdass pk i totally agree with you that because some of our colleagues make service like a buisiness , we are facing the problem . these people from our faternity should understood that because of their irresponsible behaviour subject is on the verge of nonexistense .dr p.s.thakur joint secretary IAFM.

Uday Bhaskar Reddy Reddy 

yes !!! sir!!! this is exacly what goin on somany private colleges...i have seen somany teachers in Andhra Pradesh not only in forensic Medicine and also in other subjects...they wont come to college... but they will have practice in their home town... and they will appear in MCI inspection and EXAMINATIONS AS INTERNAL AND EXTERNAL EXAMINERS......WHAT A SHAME FOR OUR DEPARTMENT... AT THE SAME TIME THE PRIVATE MANAGEMENTS ALSO ENCOURAGING THEM BY GIVING VERY LOW SALARIES AS LIKE TUTORS BUT ENCOURAGING WITH PROMOTIONS AND SERVICE CERTIFICATES....

1 WEEK BACK I HAD BEEN POSTED AS AN examiner IN A PRIVATE MEDICAL COLLEGE IN ANDHRA PRADESH ... WHEN I ENTERED IN THAT COLLEGE SOME BODY CALLED ME AS HOD.... I WAS REALLY SHOCKED STUNNED...THEN I CAME TO KNOW THAT I HAVE TO ACT THERE AS 1ST INTERNAL EXAMINER... AND ANOTEHR INTERNAL IS FROM VERY NEAREST GOVT COLLEGE( ACTUALLY THE GOVT COLLEGE PRINCIPAL WAS IN SEARCH OF THE EXAMINER IN THAT COLLEGE). AND THE OTHER EXAMINER IS FROM SOME NEAREST STATE AND HE BELONGS TO 2ND AND 5TH CATEGORY OF YOUR CLASSIFICATION SIR...THIS IS THE SYSTEM FOLLOWD BY THE UNIVERSITIES ALSO....in this mater i really appreciate and admire for the work of Prof. Devdass sir ... no body has expressed this sort of thins in the past since 3 months back we always support our Forensic medicine and our beloved seniors and colleagues which are not in any category of the above classification....


Anand Mugadlimath yes sir, U R absolutely right, but the problem is - "WHO WILL BELL THE CAT"


Devadass Pk we are in the process !!!


Fremingston Marak MCI should make it mandatory for all the medical colleges to have Smart Card for all the faculty. This different category of faculty is seen in other subjects too. MCI should find stricter ways to get rid of this menace.


Ranjit Tandle 

Respected sir,
i m fully agree with you and in support of you.
with regards.

Dr. Tandle R M
Asst Prof.
GMCH, Aurangabad

Girish Chandra 

bingo sir, u have rightly pointed out the root cause for the present scenario,that such people in our own back yard are soley responsible . now
that sir since u have openly spoken about it, we should be the whistle
blowers, and try bring back some transparecy in the whole system. and sir in general people are bound to take advantage of the loop holes in the system
and if the mci insists on bio metric for all staff then this hopping and
flying or luringor carrot dangles can be stopped.
dr.girish chandra y.p
dept FMT
m.s.Ramaiah medical college

Devadass Pk Nice to hear ,nice thing from you Girish

Manish Shrigiriwar Resp sir,now u have open the discussion abt real threat to fmt,we really accept u in toto,but bec of these people why innocent fmt man should suffer? and if bogs r not against fmt,why such vision 2015 is released ,why their is staff reduction in fmt with decreased teaching hours.SIR MCI SHOULD TREAT the GHOST NOT THE HOST .


Krishnadutt Chavali 

Nice observation Dr. Devadass sir. However, is it not time we analyse why these categories of people (2 to 5) exist in the first place? Your observation that these 4 categories are found only in private colleges is very correct. In my opinion, as per the old MCI (now amended) staff requirements, there was surplus staff in the departments of forensic medicine, especially in private medical colleges. And what was the work load? Maybe two or three or maximum four lectures per week. Now divide that among say, 4 or 5 faculty members. Each gets a lecture a week or none at all. What does one do with lots of such "free" time? How will the mere physical presence of faculty members improve the quality of teaching? My proposal is that all private medical colleges should be asked to conduct medicolegal autopsies at least of deaths that occur in their hospital. That would at least justify the requirement of staff in the department and also provide material to the students for actual demonstration. Clinical forensic medicine should be taken up by all forensic medicine departments immediately. Wherever the workload is high, additional staff should be made mandatory. This way, the problem of the managements of the private medical colleges and that of the forensic teachers could be settled. This is my personal opinion/suggestion. Maybe, I am wrong. Correct me if it is so. Positive criticism is always welcome.

Manoj Gupta 

Some Points I agree but, Can anyone above who has commented can tell whether they joined FM as a first choice. Secondly Who amongst seniors except DR VV Pillay, Dr Anil Agrawal, Dr Vijay Shah from Gujrat and some people from Maharashtra have actually done anything in Private development of FM besides Job. our National conference are for Name National Conference with no benefits. HOD never take UG lectures. NO motivation from seniors except few people mentioned above. In My DNB exams I saw some of my colleagues from best institutes of country who never dissected organs.

Manoj Gupta Dr MC Gupta is commenting on issues which our people should comment. Dead branch like Anatomy have started advising Surgeons, Physiology department has attachments in best of cardiac institutes Biochemistry has scope in its own way. People from our field after 6th pay commission are well settled. Who is showing interest?. Many of our friends are enjoyinhg Associate professor & Professor post in Government saying what else should be do if we are getting 1 lac odd amount. Come on Guys look beyond Jobs. What about corruption?did any one spoke about it in Postmortem Centres? Arranging Parties through Police officers??? why people are silent on these issues. Changing reports. Obliging Police officers for benefits. Not keeping blood for alcohol in alcoholics or keeping someone else's blood. Menace of corruption should be stopped.


Dr.O.P.Murty : In QME 
Dear Professor , Greetings ! You are  almost near to the  truth but scenario in  state/ government  sponsored colleges  is also very disappointing as here also we have different types of people like  as mentioned below –

1. Obedient servants – those who are sincere , obey rules and work sincerely
2. Manipulators – manipulates  according to their self- promoting wishes  and personal benefits
3. Time passers – dull , lacking enthusiasm, lack of drive  , passive and aloof  working  but will find them first when some thing beneficial is there
4. Excusers / Escapist – they can enumerate 10 reasons for not working but will not mention a single reason for working
5. Nuisance material – you keep them in any position  they will create nuisance , mischief mongers and insincere to themselves and their employer. Always  Over busy in making plans to be fool

with warm regards, OPMurty  source: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Quality_of_Medical_Education/message/2710

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Dr.V.V.Pillay: (in QME)
The message from Dr Devadass is very pertinent and needs to be addressed after we succeed in restoring forensic medicine & toxicology in the UG curriculum (which I hope will be done soon). I propose that the IAFM should constitute a Vigilance Committee which should comprise senior members of impeccable credentials who will monitor unethical activities being indulged in by some of our fraternity which is adversely affecting the image of the speciality. This committee can coordinate with regional and state organizations representing forensic medicine and toxicology to obtain concrete information on such reprehensible activities by faculty members of their respective regions. Once such information is obtained, disciplinary proceedings can be instituted in the same manner as in the case of professional misconduct. The guilty faculty member can be warned first, and if he does not heed the warning within a stipulated frame of time, action can be taken against him/her. The exact nature of such action can be arrived at after a wide ranging discussion, but I propose that the said faculty member's name must be divulged to the university concerned in which he is perpetrating such malpraxis, and information must also be conveyed to the State Medical Council concerned to follow up with its own disciplinary measures.

While applauding Dr. Devadass for his bold message, I must mention (at the risk of sounding immodest) that I had raised this very issue in this very forum long ago when the infamous Vision 2015 first burst on to the scene (parts of that message have been reproduced below). The time has certainly come to expose such brazenly and shamelessly commercial individuals belonging to our fraternity, who have no sense of ethics (and yet they belong to the very speciality which is supposed to deal with ethics! - the ultimate horrific irony).

Extracts from my message posted on 19 Nov 2010 -

I have been following the recent disturbing developments pertaining to forensic medicine and toxicology, and the fallout in the form of panicky discussions among the august members of this forum that seem to be (as usual) leading nowhere.

It is true that the wise men (and ladies) comprising the Board of Governors (BOG) of MCI have come up with some surprising and hasty decisions with regard to forensic medicine and toxicology, especially by way of drastic reduction of faculty. But before we start a campaign to try and nullify this ill conceived solution to the perpetual problem of faculty shortage in this speciality, shall we first acknowledge the sorry fact that we of the fraternity ourselves precipitated the current crisis? When many among us became avaricious and threw all norms of ethics to the wind, and decided to make (illicit) hay while the sun shone, by demanding huge sums of money from various private medical colleges often coupled with other horrific demands, did we really think that this will go on forever? The bubble was bound to burst, and it now has. Before beating our chests and pulling our hair, and crying blue murder, we must introspect and hang our heads in shame for the blatant greed that some of us exhibited over the last few years. I know of several colleagues (ranging from the minnows to the grey haired profs) who hopped from college to college for higher and higher pay, to the point where nothing else mattered except which college would give the maximum salary for the least amount of work. What has now happened is retribution, plain and simple. So let us stop pretending that we are saints who have been taken to the stake to be burned, and accept that we sinned and are now facing nemesis.

Having said that, I agree we cannot sit idle and watch while the entire edifice of forensic medicine and toxicology crumbles around us, however much we ourselves may have to be blamed for this catastrophe............

V.V.Pillay MD, DCLChief, Poison Control Centre
Head, Dept of Analytical Toxicology & Forensic Biotechnology
Professor, Forensic Medicine & Medical Toxicology
Amrita Institute of Medical Sciences & Research
Cochin, Kerala  682041
India

Source: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Quality_of_Medical_Education/message/2709

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DR.SHASHIDHAR.C.MESTRI (sent via Email)
Hello,
I endorss the views but to be fare one should project both sides of coin for initiating effective measures.
There are pseudo sincere experts who claim that they r doing good to the subject. The situation is because of mushrooming of medical colleges and exploitation is from both managements and the faculty of all subjects. Before pointing out finger at one section of people,one will have to think what is happening with their own set up. The Govt faculty is posted to another Govt college for only MCI purpose. There r few who go few days a month even in Govt colleges! Regarding personal gain etc let us talk less about that because there are blacksheeps in both set up. To just support my view, people r aware of body scams, corruption and medico-legal autopsy demonstration to private college students. One can go on blamiming each other with no real concern for subject. Instead of that all our elite colleagues who r at helm of affairs must stop mudslinging and appraise MCI and plug loopholes both in private & Govt set up.
I suggest MCI should introduce Biometrics in all colleges and grant extra leave for those who r working in colleges located in remote places with no facility for education of kith & kin of faculties children etc.
Ultimate goal of all of us should be how one can run the show without suffering of teaching & quality education.
I once again appeal to all, no body should blame each other & humilate your own colleagues.
with best wishes

DR.SHASHIDHAR.C.MESTRI
PROF. FMT



Reactions to Dr.Mestri's comments (after they were posted in facebook):
Santhosh Siddappa Biometrics is good idea. that should be compulsorily done
Pravin Tayade Sir,I agree with your opinion.Dr.Pravin.J.Tayade, Assoc. Prof & Head F M &T
Fremingston Marak MCI Notification regarding Biometric Card reader:http://www.mciindia.org/tools/announcement/Biometric%20Card%20Reader.pdf Note: "The compliance should be submitted to the Council, immediately, thereafter". I am yet to understand what "IMMEDIATELY" stands for in English language.
Pravin Tayade 

Sir,Rule  should be common to all faculty members. All faculty should work for 31 days in a month. No part-time or MCI faculty, they will ruin the subject.Suprise MCI inspection or without intimation MCI inspection  , so that Govt. or Pvt. Medical College will not get time to arrange pseudo faculty.

Yatiraj Singi Rightly said mestri sir

Pratik Tarvadi 

Respected seniors and dear friendscase.
it is a fact that it is not just forensic faculty, where these type of misbehaviour is seen and also it is not only pre or para clinical but also clinical side where the faculty donot bother to teach students as their valuable time of earning is lost teaching students.
it is more common in government than in private, where a senior faculty doesnot even attend the OPDs except when it is their case referred from their clinic. In private also the matter is nothing different, as the clinicians are more busy even in their duty timings to attend to their clinic or nursing home patients. But these are never reffered as the hospital runs under their autonomy.
The pre and para are blamed as the college spends more than what it receives, now here more attention comes for FORENSIC MEDICINE. In our field, our senior faculty go outstation and even outside country as they are not practicing in any clinic or nursing home except a handfull. As our faculty strength is also less, these circumstances get additionallly highlighted.
The pre and para ( Anatomy, Physiology, Pharmacology) are in similar boat, but the management is given a golden magical stick of allowing MSc candidates to teach medical students (Presently 50% of department strength is allowed) which management can appoint at a low pay scale, but in case of forensic medicine, they cannot play with Law and Judiciary and also medical student's future as they have to appoint a qualified MD Forensic medicine and so they want to reduce our requirement.
Hence lets join our hands, even in this battle, and remove this blackmark (that we take huge salaries but never or very rarely attend college or teach students) on us.Let IMA, MCI and state council take appropriate steps to eradicate these types of misbehaviours by taking stringent action not only on the doctors who are doing it but also on the colleges who are allowing such activities.

Umamaheswara Rao Pothula your thinking and analysis is very good. At this juncture we have to unite and fight against the MCI by correcting ourselves.

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Dear Friends,

The views on the present issues from all including those from Profs. Devadas, Pillay and Mestri are well taken. However, I am tempted to agree with Prof. Mestri.

Let us set our house in order, let us clean the Aegean stables....the classification of faculty members into five or so categories by Prof.  Devadas is self- explanatory. But this type of wrong things were prevalent even earlier much before the trend of mushrooming of self financing MCs emerged, not only in our speciality but in several other specialities too. May be not for fatty perks, but for some other gains. Some were perennial 'University Examiners', never available  for teaching in their own institutions, but always available for giving evidence in petty to serious medico legal cases (by not giving chances to capable junior hands !).

Thus what we require is wholesome package to purge ourselves of wrongdoings. Even IAFM requires toning up, giving it a true national picture and representation, in real terms.

No criticism intended at all: but this is an earnest call for a very deep introspection and refurbishing the entire setting. Jai Forensic Medicine: though a 'deadwood' of 1967 brand, I am always there with you all in keeping our flag high and flying.

Fraternally yours, Sincerely,

Dr.P.Sivasankara Pillai,

Former DME (Kerala) and now

Professor & HOD of Forensic Medicine,

Sree Gokulam medical College & Research Foundation,

Thiruvananthapuram - 695 607. Kerala.--
Dr.P.Sivasankara Pillai, MD.,DFM.,LLB.,
'Gayatri', 345 - Bapuji Nagar,
Pongummoodu,Medical College PO.,
Trivandrum -695 011.
Phone: +91 471 2442133
           +91 9947003382.
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Dear Prof. Devadass

Greetings! First of all I extend compliments for all the efforts put in by your PG students and faculty towards betterment of Forensic Medicine.  I have gone through your write up and since you are open to comments the following personal feelings about your article may please be taken in good spirit:-

1.         Do you think it is balanced article? I think you have put all the blame on FMT teachers and exonerated MCI and Institutes of their responsibilities/misdeeds. There are simple ways of finding out, IF MCI SO DESIRES ,the attendance of teachers by having a regular feedback form from students, salary account statement of Bank, Income tax return filed copies, and an undertaking to the effect that if any of them found wrong MCI will be free to take appropriate action at appropriate forum. Question is “Is there a Will to do so” because it is said where there is will there is a way! You being close to BOG can answer much better to our understanding. But MCI on suggestions of honourable people like you are looking for paper work more than the performance of students, their training and knowledge levels, performance of teachers and their capacity and capabilities. I am sorry to state that MCI fails to apply basic logic in many cases like when a Faculty is present in an Institution from a certain date to another date, proven beyond reasonable doubt through various documents available with him, MCI wants a “CERTIFICATE OF EXPERIENCE”. If Institutions can afford to blackmail faculty members by not issuing this so called CERTIFICATES OF EXPERIENCE , faculty members have equal right to black mail them back. So first put the house in order and then look for offenders in neighbouring areas. And this is just one of them. What happened to the rule that 10 years of teaching experience after post graduation should qualify a faculty to become Professor rather than ask them for associate and assistant professor certificate of working. You honourable people should have driven this point into the minds of great BOGs that there is no work which differentiates an assistant professor from associate or Professor. MCI creates these hassles and then blame Faculty which is neither good nor  justified. The Govt. medical colleges do not promote an assistant professor to associate despite their completing 5 years as any promotion is vacancy oriented. As a result many retire as associate only after putting more than 20 years of teaching as a recognised good teacher or rather “Excellent” teachers. I am an example of completing PG in 1986, notified Assistant Professor in 1988 and left Govt. as Assistant Professor in 2001(after 22 years of teaching) to join private---do you have any explanation or justification for these great issues which need to affect and concern the advisors and members and associates of MCI?! There are several such examples of illogical approach of an MCI inspector while inspecting an Institution and documents as some of them make you laugh at the intelligence of honourable inspectors!

2.         Don’t you think you are unnecessarily trying to make these faculty members BONDED LABOURS in the hands of Private Institutes? It is any professional’s right to opt for better prospects. This can be seen in any field may it be engineering, accountancy, Media etc. etc. And why will not one get better pay and perks “IF AVAILABLE”        . The main words have been put in capital letters! Can MCI not work through you honourable people  in the direction of asking an Institute to fix  pay, perks, standard working conditions in form of a draft of AGREEMENT to be executed between employee and employer rather than catch hold of the weakest link in the set up and penalise for weakness on part of controlling body such as MCI???? I feel faculty members have been made to stand guilty without having committed any crime!!

So it is a humble request that you please bring to the notice of BOGs these conditions for rectification and then feel free to put such faculty members, as alleged by you to belong to the class of “Spoilsport”, into the dock and declare them GUILTY—we all shall join your band. But before that let there be an open session of question and answer on such issues between open invitees (Not only representatives) and MCI. MCI office has large ground to organise it if it wants.

With regards!

Dr D.B.dayal

Professor and Head of Department

Army College of Medical Sciences

Delhi Cantt., New Delhi

Phone: 011-23337825  mob: 9868272638

Dr.   D. B. Dayal
Professor and Head of  Forensic Medicine & Toxicology Department
Army College of Medical Sciences, Delhi Cantt., New Delhi-110010
Phone: (office Direct) 011-23337825   (mob.)  9868272638


source: http://groups.google.com/group/discuss-medico-legal-issues-with-prof-r-k-sharma/browse_thread/thread/35bee08a77ade33d?hl=en
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Dear Dr Devadass & Dr. Pillay
I do not know how you got the idea that members of forensic medicine faculty are the worst lot. My experience has been just the opposite and I have reason to trust my opinion because I was on administrative posts for more than two decades, closely observing medical teachers of different subjects. Where as, there are black sheeps in all subjects but there number is definitely much less in forensic medicine. May be because they also teach ethics or may be because of their greater exposure to consequences of crime and their higher knowledge of law. What ever but number of wrong doers is definitely less in Forensic Medicine. Even the MCI inspectors (now called assessors) from forensic medicine behave much more honourably in comparison to teachers from other departments in accepting hospitality from management. Same is the case with frequency of visit to the college. Raising of retirement age from 65 to 70 has nothing to do with forensic medicine or far that matter medical science. Age of retirement is being raised all over. In universities, judiciary, civil services etc. What is the age of our national security adviser and several such post holders apart from politicians including our hon'ble prime minister. I am unable to comprehend how could faculty members of forensic medicine could be instrumental in reducing the staff requirement by MCI. I understand it was done at the request of management of medical colleges that they are not getting teachers of forensic medicine. Number of teachers of forensic medicine is less not because of teachers themselves but because the subject did not attract medical graduates and was generally neglected by the administration. If teachers are shifting from one medical college to other it is only because the management, to satisfy MCI requirement lures them with higher pay and perks. No body should expect them to be angels to say 'No' I will not take higher salary. There is a book 'Power' written by Bertrand Russell it explains why we are doing what we are doing. 

Dr. S. K. Roy Chaudhary, MBBS (Hons) MD (PU)
Retd. Principal And Dean of a Govt. Med College,
Prof. & HOD Forensic Medicine


Source: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/forensicwayout/message/125

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Dear Prof.Murty,

                 Congratulations for expressing my views in a candid way. There our colleagues who r under the impression that faculty working in private colleges r nuts! But the fact is that these r those unluky lot but talented (not all which is fact in any field) could not get Govt job for various reasons less said the property. All of young & old should realise that 'Knowledge is nobodies property' and working for the betterment of subject done by many. Famous dasa, poet many centuries ego told that if   'I' inroads mind of a person it destroys one self & the society. It should be 'We'

       United we stand divided not only fall but perish!! In any system so many aspects r to be looked into to arrive at a conclusion to up hold the dignity & image of subject which is our bread earner. I had a occasion to interact with few learned and they expressed that evey thing is know to MCI & Govt but they r puppets in the hands of politicians, pontifs, industrialists who r in medical education business!

   I would like to mention here that MCI meant for uniform standard through out India has utterly failed. One shall realise if we go through syllabus & curriculum of various Universities & of late the latest crop of deemed (doomed!!!) Universities.

 Let us work hard collectively to bring standard in entire medical education to elvate the standard of medical education & thus the Noble profession.

 With warm regards

 DR.SHASHIDHAR.C.MESTRI

PROF FMT
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Dear friends, colleagues and students,

I am delighted to inform you that I am beginning to receive hate mail! Delighted because it means I am beginning to ruffle some feathers, and that is sometimes good as it will stir things up. We all know that only by stirring things up will there be change; if people remain un-ruffled nothing will ever change. My only disappointment is that this loving hate-mail writer (is that a contradiction in terms?) has not revealed himself. He is using what is obviously an anonymous/ fabricated ID and sending prurient tidbits about me to certain other forums/individuals who are in turn graciously forwarding them to me! This is so disappointing. I would love to get to know this charming individual personally and find out about all my faults in great detail (I am sure there are plenty more!). So my earnest request to him would be to please not be so coy and come out in the open. Do talk to me on a direct, one-to-one level (man to man, as they say), and disgorge all those pent-up feelings. My private email IDs are given below. Please get in touch with me on either or both these IDs. I am looking forward to hearing from you so that we can have an intense, private discussion of all that is hateful about me without really troubling other individuals or members of any public forum! After all, I am not Shahrukh Khan or Amitabh Bachchan for people to be interested in my petty little misdemeanours, however sordid or salacious they might be!

On a more serious note, I must offer my sincere apologies to some of my respected colleagues who appear to have taken personal offence at my message about some faculty members indulging in unethical activities with regard to employment. I had absolutely no intention of hurting anybody's feelings. It was a purely impersonal message which was not directed at anyone in particular. I have also read some other mails emanating from distinguished senior professors as well as young colleagues and students who feel that the message may have been unwarranted. Therefore, I once again offer my unconditional apology.

However, since I am still a little confused about the whole issue (my IQ is a little low I am afraid), I would like clarifications about the following points that keep bouncing around in my head. Do send in totally impartial and objective responses. If there is anything you would like to communicate on a more personal level (positive or negative), I would appreciate it if you could send it to my personal IDs given below. My only desire is to encourage healthy debate and arrive at a consensus. Whatever is acceptable to the majority among us, is acceptable to me.

1. If a particular unethical act is indulged in by faculty members of other specialities or employment sectors, does it absolve us of guilt if we also do the same? In other words, is a particular act of omission or commission OK as long as everybody (or many others) are doing it?

2. If some unhealthy practices have been going on for ages, is it better to let these go on, rather than put a stop to them? In other words, is it OK to exercise laissez faire in such matters?

3. Is it allright to excuse a faculty member who takes up an offer of exorbitant pay for little or no work, just because there are some medical colleges which are ready to make such offers?

4. Is it mandatory that we address an issue only if all other issues are also addressed simultaneously? Let me make this clear. Some of you have mentioned about corruption in medicolegal (or even clinical) practice in the government sector, and say that they must also be taken up if the matter of unethical practices in private medical college employment are raised.

5. Would it be advisable to have a mechanism in place whereby activities that bring a bad name to the entire speciality can be penalised or prevented? Or is it OK to say that there are black sheep everywhere, so let us ignore or tolerate them, even if it means that our speciality is being tarnished?

6. Finally, is it the responsibility of medical professionals to regulate their own conduct(through professional bodies, organizations, committees), or is it the responsibility of the MCI? Which is preferable, if the answer is that either option is allright?

Do note that every question above is impersonal, and as they say in fictional books and movies, any similarity to any individual (living or dead) is purely coincidental and totally unintentional.

Best regards,

V V Pillay

For personal replies (critical, recriminatory, abusive, or downright hateful), do use the following IDs without hesitation! I urge you not to hide behind anonymity or fake identity; it is not necessary. 

drvvpillay@rediffmail.com

pillayvv@gmail.com

All other responses may be sent to the same ID through which this message is being sent.


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Dear Dr.Pillay,
Let me congratulate Dr.Devadass & yourself for raising a pertinent issue which was lingering in the minds of many for many years.To be specific when mushrooming of colleges started. A flood gate has been opened by you both with your candid views. As a response to that I have expressed my views how best one further expand the scope of bringing back the lost glory of medical profession as a whole. i have not expressed any views about any section of people working in either private or Govt to hurt them. my intention was how best one can plug all possible loopholes of the system to bring back standrad of medical education & subject. i know it is an uphill task but not impossible.
I feel all those at helm of affairs, President & secretaries of Subject association must form a committee and suggest MCI. As regards ur clarification whether who should supervise/observe ethical issues, it is already being practiced by different people in different ways. What I think ethical may be not acceptible to another. But one can behave ethically which accepted by many.
i have not taken either ur or Dr.Devadass's view personal. I have rather appreciated u both at the same time widened the scope for bringing back standard in medical education as a whole.
I am sure all agree that I have freedom of speech & expression. I am also confident what ever i have raised r also directly or indirectly linked to elevate the image of subject.
i do appologise if I am too harsh & hurt anybody in the bargain.
But pl rememberboth of u have raisde very pertinent & burning issue and opened pandora box. Pl donot take any thing personal, allow people express and then a committee can come out with solutions applicable to all and also decide what is right & what is wrong.
I know u know that when such issues r raised we will be rubbing people on the wrong side! Do not accept all shall praise ur move.
With best wishes.
Dr.Shashidhar C Mestri
Prof of FMT